Is there any "command navigation" info to help fin

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Stance
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Post by *Stance »

Hi spikey,
Total Commander is not a "Command Center" or a suite, where you have to start a process first and receive a interaction (window) for every command. I like the idea of having the searchwindow first and starting TC with the results, same with "compare by content" and so on. But this is not the way TC works.

Inside the Search window is a well hidden button: Feed to listbox.

Renaming is realized through many ways: Menu, contextmenu (rightclick), buttonbar (at will), maybe slow dubble click and you can assign the F2 -Key for this. You can tell TC by its config -file (INI) whether only the name or complete file with extension should be marked for renaming.

TC is highly configurable and you get tons of addons for free! You have just touched the surface. But TC is not a program for people who needs "help for the helpfile". This was often stated before by the developer. Every powerfull Filemanager can cause a lot of damage, when it is used in a wrong way. :shock:

The helpfile is not made by us. But since we have the Total Commander Wiki, I can imagine how much work a good helpfile makes. It uses not the last version of the help -software but it is allways up to date.

Besides that you can allways post your questions into this forum, which is very active.
Please use the Search -Button on the top of the page before you do so, you will find a lot of useful information related to computers, software and security.

Kind regards
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Post by *spikey »

Sir_SiLvA wrote:spikey: since when do you work on a pc ?
I have worked on PCs a long time.

I was working for IBM when the IBM PC/XT came out and used it then. However my first PC was a Commodore Pet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_PET. Ah those were the days. Machine code programming just to move the cursor in an unconventional way and long-term storage only on cassette tape.

Am not a noobie but I firmly believe that there is no merit in making applications harder to use than necessary.

Have a look at the help text in PowerPro which is probably a more complex utility than Total Commander. In fact it is a very hot application (freeware - no nags, no delays, no ads) and I would recommend it to anybody. http://powerpro.webeddie.com/

Then see what decent help text looks like. Of course Powerpro is not for beginners and the concepts driving the application may be too messy for some to want to use but the help text (and thoughtfully provided sample configuration) is hot.

Take care.

Spikey
Last edited by spikey on 2006-05-09, 07:21 UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by *spikey »

Sticky wrote:This seems like a very appropriate question. Or what I really would like to know is what first interested you in Total Commander?
Spikey wrote:TC makes it hard to do by having a non-standard and non-intuitive GUI plus a help text which offers no extra help about navigating to commands.
Spikey, everytime you see a hyphen, replace it with a > and the help may begin to make more sense to you. Although I understand what you are saying, many of us think that the TC GUI is very intuitive. Hence the reason Lefteous has asked you what, specifically, you had trouble finding.
Hi Stickey. I am a bit of veteran in computing and I find that of all the technical people in a corporation it is usually only the computer department which communicates its technology so badly to non-technical people. IYSWIM.

Other technical departments like the air conditioning engineers, building infrastructure engineers and so on speak in plain English. If the corporation is a chemicals manufacurer then the hardcore chemists still speak in plain English to others when describing their work.

All that above is by way of saying that PC techies just love being PC techies :-) and live that techie hobbyist life so completely that they almost don't realise that PC ideas can actually be conveyed in plain English and that a lot of their "deep technical knowledge" is actually simple stuff spoken in jargon. But jargon can be translated and their assumptions be made clearer.

And that is what I think is happening in this case. TC is a technician's wonder-toy and the technicians can't understand why anyone would want to walk up and use it. Hey no. We have to use special key conventions and make sure they are non standard! :-) We have to put our propellor hats on [just joking] and have a real conversation about processor wait states and lock functionality and if we mention a software driver we shall always talk about the driver as if it was hardware and make sure no one new can follow what we are talking about.

I am only partly joking when I say that we techies will muddle up our conversations to throw people off the scent and so we will talk about MP3 bitrates we will leave off the "kbit/second" part to make sure the listener gets it confused with the sampling rate and just to really shake them off we will throw in "bit depth" from time to time as well as a set of different numbers for frequency response.

Heh heh! I used to lecture in computing. It doesn't have to be hard for the student although it often is - but for no good reason.

To answer your question about what interested me in TC, I can say that I like some of its specialized functions which many one pane and two pane file managers don't have. I have approximately 15 different file managers on my PC (I have never bothered to count them all) and various file manager type utilities like FileLocator Pro (Agent Ransack), directory printers, XYplorer (lovely high function one pane file manager and searcher). I still like PowerDesk Pro, never was impressed with later versions of Norton Utils after about v4, don't use Salamander all that much because it looks backward, xplorer2 is a sweetie, Magellen offers better 4DOS descript.ion file support to me than any of TC's plugins, etc. Am not an Xtree dinosaur though, so be careful of saying that!

But TC is the mystery one. So much damn function and such a poor interface through which to access it. I like my hotkey shortcut keyboard interface as much as anyone who has gone beyond point-&-click but TC remains just odd!

How hard can it be to add a single navigation line to every help pane that describes a command? It's not hard at all.
Spikey
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Post by *XPEHOPE3KA »

Well, TC is a FM for day-to-day, hour-to-hour (and so on) usage. That means: if you need any function - find it first and then make it better accessible to you (button on bottonbar, hotkey, start menu, hotdir menu).

If you have over 15 of such utilities, I can guess you're probably got confused by their different interface:
if you're using, say, five of them, you should remember some shortcuts and hard paths to menu items for all these five, but if you can't remember something, you search their help files.

Well, TC is not intended to be a sixteenth file manager. If it's not first for you (ar at least second), you should uninstall it.
But if you like it, you should uninstall nearly 14 other FMs as they won't be needed for you anymore.

Hope, you got it: the more you need to remember in other file managers, the less you can use TC.
F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab... - I like to move IT, move IT!..
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Post by *Lefteous »

2spikey
Would be great if you could answer my question...
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Post by *spikey »

Lefteous wrote:2spikey
nfortunately the quoted text above does not tell me how to get to the command.
. Select Files - Compare by content
If this not what you are looking for what is it?
Lefteous, sorry not to have answered.

Yes, I have given a poor example as Compare By Content does have navigation information.

Here is a much better example: "Compare Directories". And below is the whole of the help text page.
Compare directories

Compares the contents of the source and destination directory. Newer files are selected. Files missing in one directory are also selected in the other. Only newer files are marked, not all differing files. This behavior is similar to a popular Commander for DOS.
In that example there is no navigation.

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Post by *Lefteous »

2spikey
No I'm referring to this post:
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=87172#87172
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Post by *XPEHOPE3KA »

2spikey
You seem to have serious problems in searching *.hlp files. I've easily found needed menu entry (using help), though I've never used this menu entry as I prefer shortcuts for this kind of action.
F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab... - I like to move IT, move IT!..
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Post by *ChuckBuhler »

I think I understand what Spiky is asking. One solution might be to in the comment on each line of the totalcmd.inc file, add the default keyboard command.

currently:
cm_Edit=904;Edit (Notepad)
cm_Copy=905;Copy files

change to:
cm_Edit=904;Edit (Notepad) - F4
cm_Copy=905;Copy files - F5
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Post by *spikey »

ChuckBuhler wrote:I think I understand what Spiky is asking. One solution might be to in the comment on each line of the totalcmd.inc file, add the default keyboard command.

currently:
cm_Edit=904;Edit (Notepad)
cm_Copy=905;Copy files

change to:
cm_Edit=904;Edit (Notepad) - F4
cm_Copy=905;Copy files - F5
Hiya Chuck. No it is not as complicated as that.

At the top of the help page where it says, for example, Compare Directories I would like to see a single line which shows how to get from launching TC to the Compare Directories function or command.
Total Commander menu > Mark > Compare Direcories
That is one line of text. No more. That's it. And it would be need to be written in each help page that explains a command. Its purpose would be show how the user (who had stumbled on the help page and now wanted to use the function) could go out of Help and go to TC and immediately locate the command.

Easy to implement and useful for users. And something which a lot of softare has in its help text.

That's all. Nothing complicated. Nothing fancy.
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Post by *XPEHOPE3KA »

Please, spikey, tell me, how did you get yourself to the explanation of what compare directories do? You've used search, haven't you? And the search gave you only two results: "compare directories" and "mark newer, hide same", right?
But look at the window you searched in... doesn't it have TWO tabs? You are on the left one, are you? Switch to the right then :). Press "Parameters" button and tell to the program that you want it to consider the order of searched words. Now write "compare directories" and get THREE results. The last of them is what you're searching, because it contains the word "menu".
This example shows how one should use the search engine in winhlp32. Hope, from now you won't have any search problems.
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Post by *spikey »

XPEHOPE3KA wrote:Please, spikey, tell me, how did you get yourself to the explanation of what compare directories do? You've used search, haven't you? And the search gave you only two results: "compare directories" and "mark newer, hide same", right?
But look at the window you searched in... doesn't it have TWO tabs? You are on the left one, are you? Switch to the right then :). Press "Parameters" button and tell to the program that you want it to consider the order of searched words. Now write "compare directories" and get THREE results. The last of them is what you're searching, because it contains the word "menu".
This example shows how one should use the search engine in winhlp32. Hope, from now you won't have any search problems.
I have no idea what you are talking about when you refer to how I got to that page in help.

If you go backin this thread you will find my posting where I describe, in exact and detailed steps, precisely how I got to that page. I suggest that if you read through that it might answer your question. In fact, I may have posted that info twice in this thread.

I have no recollection nor understanding of the "parameters" stuff you mention. I sense you have gone into the program. If so then you are not reading my posts.

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Post by *XPEHOPE3KA »

I'm talking of winhlp32.exe program. If you doubleclick any *.hlp file you'll run it (choosing "help" in TC menu does the same - executes winhlp32.exe). It has search function which I was talking about. Actually, Sheepdog has already told you about how to search, but not as detailed as I did.

And... you haven't specified exactly how did you find that help text. You told, for example, this:
If you look at TC's help text for that command then it says this:
F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab, F6, Enter, Tab... - I like to move IT, move IT!..
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Post by *spikey »

XPEHOPE3KA wrote:I'm talking of winhlp32.exe program. If you doubleclick any *.hlp file you'll run it (choosing "help" in TC menu does the same - executes winhlp32.exe). It has search function which I was talking about. Actually, Sheepdog has already told you about how to search, but not as detailed as I did.

And... you haven't specified exactly how did you find that help text. You told, for example, this:
If you look at TC's help text for that command then it says this:
XPEHOPE3KA, please excuse me if I am sound a bit thick but you and I could get into a fight if we are not careful! :-) GRRRR! And I don't want that because there is a lot to learn from you guys about TC. I never said it was total crap, did I?

What Sheepdog has said about searching (on 2nd May if we are talking about the same posting) is what I too am referring to. In a later poting (which I made on 4 May to Clo) I go through an example. Unfortunately it is a poor example because the particular help page page does in fact contain a navigation path. *blush* But I later give a much better example to Leftitious on 9th May.

What Sheepdog and others have kindly posted are sophisticated complications wheras I am talking about something [face=arial]REALLY SIMPLE[/face].

Look XPEHOPE3KA let me explain it once again (groo!). Follow me here. Make zero assumptions and we shall be home and dry in about 30 seconds.
Spikey tries again and this time he wrote: I sit at my PC.

I turn it on and wait for it to boot.

I say to myself I need to do something and that TC shoukld be able to help me.

I launch TC.

I think ... how do I compare two directories using TC.

I don't fjuking know so I press the help button on the right hand side.

I go through the steps touse help (as I detailed to Leftitious).

I see the help text to Compare Directories.

Jesus wept, I say, it is exactly what I want. I can't believe my luck.

Then ... then ... then ... then ...

I think, "Er, now hang on a second. How exactly do I get from the Compare Directories help page to the Compare Directories command?"

Well, I have to say I have no idea!

I close the help page and start to play with the menus.

Peekaboo! Are you, Mr Compare Directories, hiding here? Nooo.

Peekaboo. So are you, Mr Compare Directories hiding, over there? Nooo.

Are you in this menu? Nooo.

Are you at the bottom of the screen? Nooo.

Are you a sub command?

Are you in the options?

Are you a context menu command?

Are you only a hotkey command?


Phew! I needed some kind words to help with the navigation from that help page which I just left and which might have been more helpful if it had said,

"Ok, kiddo. If you need me, Mr Compare Directories, then to visit me you click the thing marked DINGLE and then you drop down the combo box DONGLE and you click the keyword DANGLE ... and hey presto I, the same Mr Compare Directories you want and love and respect, will be on your little screen waiting for your commands".
XPEHOPE3KA it takes only one line of text on the help page to tell me what I want. Now please don't tell me that was not simple enough to follow, or I will scream!

I pretty much gave the same explanation to Chuck when I posted on 13th May and said the following ... (and I quote directly and exactly what I posted) ...

Way back in this thread, I ,Spikey wrote: At the top of the help page where it says, for example, Compare Directories I would like to see a single line which shows how to get from launching TC to the Compare Directories function or command.
Total Commander menu > Mark > Compare Direcories
That is one line of text. No more. That's it. And it would be need to be written in each help page that explains a command. Its purpose would be show how the user (who had stumbled on the help page and now wanted to use the function) could go out of Help and go to TC and immediately locate the command.

Easy to implement and useful for users. And something which a lot of softare has in its help text.

That's all. Nothing complicated. Nothing fancy.
That's it then. I can't simplify the simple any more. And weird stuff posted by other very nice people is largely irrelavent as I believe they are answering a suggestion I did not make.

So just in case I lost anyone in all the verbiage above ...
I search help, I find what I want and I want to go to the command. Please make it easy for me to navigate from the help page's text to the command itself. There's no hot links involved or anything as fancy as like that. Just a bit of helpful text.

Spikey is not complicated!

Best wishes
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Post by *spikey »

Sheepdog wrote:Maybe the tutorials especially the animated tutorials will help you to understand the basics?

sheepdog
I just saw your posting Sheepdog.

I have to say that I can only cope with something as hard to understand as an animated tutorial if there is a big kitten in it called "Cuddles" and who has pink fur and wears a pink bow in her, er, hair. She would point with her paw to the things she is explaining and then would walk around the screen to give me time while I am trying to absorb complex concepts like "click".

When she explains "double click" she offers me a option of taking a rest for 15 minutes so I can properly absorb the notion by sitting down if I am dizzy and I have time to prepare any questions!

*grin*
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