moderation please!

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Sheepdog
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moderation please!

Post by *Sheepdog »

In the german forum @ghisler gave an official warning to icfu which caused him to leave the forum at all. I do not agree to the opinion of @ghisler.

So I translate my reply to @ghisler:


This is an official complaint.
following are a few threads where norfie did provoke the user icfu:
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=36586#36586
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=36598#36598
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=36657#36657
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=36703#36703
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=37496#37496
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=27593#27593
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=27627#27627
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34888#34888
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34896#34896
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34549#34549
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34063#34063
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34066#34066
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34071#34071
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34096#34096
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34149#34149
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34165#34165
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34372#34372
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34525#34525
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34632#34632
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=33895#33895
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=33901#33901
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=33907#33907
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=25568#25568
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=25577#25577
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=32187#32187
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=31203#31203
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=31220#31220
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=31248#31248
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=30419#30419
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=30198#30198
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=30206#30206
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=30216#30216
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=30220#30220
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=26227#26227
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=26248#26248

If now the user Icfu reacts to this provokations so it's in my opinion not appropriate to caution him while norfie gets free.

Additional in my opinion calling 'Wicht' (which means 'Imp') isn't worthy a official WARNING. The idiom 'f-word you in the kneelings' means leave me in peace - as far as I understand it.

The supposition of you, this statement could justify a trial I don't share.I doubt that there would be a Judge in Germany or Suisse who values this posting of icfu as defamatory.


If you invited a blacklist after the thread 'Mehr Moderation Bitte' , this posting wouldn't probably ever be written.

So I have to change my opinion in the above mentioned thread.

If you couldn't moderate these forums appropriate, maybe you should delegate delegate it to someone else.
What do you think?


sheepdog
Last edited by Sheepdog on 2004-08-22, 07:15 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Correct statement

Post by *Clo »

2Sheepdog
:) Hello Stefan !
¤ I agree 100 %. Thank you for these big documented work and translation.

- Such a harassment is insupportable, I know that I say.
- I support your statement.

:| Kind regards,
Claude
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Post by *pdavit »

2 Sheepdog

You should probably change your thread's title to something that reflects the reality. So, in other words it should be changed from "better moderation please" to "please moderate". You know what I mean by that! Moderation on this forum simply does not exist.

2 Sheepdog & all

Based on that multiple references you have supported I came up with this idea: Each member should get 10 foul points (warnings) which should be indicated under his/her number of posts. Upon completion of the 10 foul points the user can continue posting but by the time a next inappropriate post is made he/she will automatically get out of the forum.

A member should be able to appeal for a foul point to be withdrawn but his/her arguments should be made available to the rest of the forum members who will actually take the final decision. Probably the same public method should also be followed for assigning a foul point and not just withdrawing one.

Initially this approach looks a bit complicated to implement and maintain but if something similar is finally implemented there will be no need for individual forum moderators as forum members will actually do the moderation (up to a certain point).

This is the most democratic method although not the most straightforward!
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Post by *Sheepdog »

pdavit wrote:You should probably change your thread's title ...
I did followo your suggestion ;)

pdavit wrote:Each member should get 10 foul points (warnings) which should be indicated under his/her number of posts.

A member should be able to appeal for a foul point to be withdrawn but his/her arguments should be made available to the rest of the forum members who will actually take the final decision. Probably the same public method should also be followed for assigning a foul point...

This is the most democratic method although not the most straightforward!
While I do not know how to implement this I like the whole idea.

Additional I think that only members with a certain number (maybe 50) of postings should have the right to vote for/against a 'foul point'. Or, perhaps members who joined the forum at least one year before.
That should prevent easy manipulations of such an 'foul point list'.

thanks for your attention

sheepdog
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
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Post by *deus-ex »

2Sheepdog

I just went through the whole "Mehr Moderation Bitte" thread again to consolidate my opinion.
I definetly support your official complaint regarding icfu.
A blacklist is a handy tool i wished to have at my hands more than once in this forum.
I'm sad having to say that. :(

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

2pdavit

I'm uncomfortable with your "foul points" idea. Like walking around with a 'mark', everybody pointing at you,
like wearing a jewish star. Who will take you for real when you have a couple of foulpoints in your sig?

Besides i did'nt want to wait for troll to be banned after the 11th penalty. What would you have to do to get
your foul score lowered by one point? Who is going to decide to raise/lower your foulpoint count? I think
only forumvisitors who are known as experienced, mature person and hence accepted should be set in position
to make such decissions, transparent to the community.

If they're members willing to be elected into moderator position they should open an official poll.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Last but not least:

2icfu

I hope you reconsider your decision and join us back in. The community should'nt have to pay the price
of losing a valuable member because of the shortcomings/failures of a few. :(

If you decide to stay away let me say thank you for your contributions, both entertaining and experiencing,
and wishing you all the best. ;)


Regards, deus-ex.

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Post by *pdavit »

> I'm uncomfortable with your "foul points" idea. Like walking around with a 'mark', everybody pointing at you, like wearing a jewish star. Who will take you for real when you have a couple of foulpoints in your sig?

Well, we can make the point system transparent if you like. Counting will be there but just not visible to others so that there is no prejudice over the posted text.


> What would you have to do to get your foul score lowered by one point?

Appeal to the court! :P

i.e. Provide some valid arguments and/or admit your error.


> Who is going to decide to raise/lower your foulpoint count?

You gave that answer yourself and I support it.


> ...losing a valuable member because of the shortcomings/failures of a few.

Actually that "few" in the current situation is not purely Norfie but also Christian himself which makes the issue very delicate. Thus this thread by Sheepdog since Christian is the only moderator currently.

Jeff (aka icfu) did not quit because of Norfie but because of Christian. Norfie was just the spark of this... "holocaust". :(
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Post by *deus-ex »

pdavit wrote:Jeff (aka icfu) did not quit because of Norfie but because of Christian. Norfie was just the spark of this... "holocaust". :(
Yes, this is how i understood it, too.

The essence to me as of now is, one can anoy/disturb continuesly without a harm. But if one once uses a strong word
(which was foreseeable to happen) he gets an official warning? :roll:

I expect Christian to officialy clarify/justify his statement after he proofed the facts. I don't feel comfortable with the
current situation and i do not want to just go over that.

If we do, who is next....?


Regards, deus-ex.

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Post by *Vansumsen »

Answer to a topic that never might exist...

I spent a lot of hours to reread the "saga"...
The fact that no avertising was made before is that's troubling me...
I'm surprised also that Icfu hasn't exploded sooner ...

However, German is the Ghisler's mother tongue... I have dificulties to understand why he reacts so late and in a single direction only !
A good moderator doesn't punish people who curses of pain, but well the strikers...
In this case, Christian seems to be better at programming than at moderation...
Please Christian, pays attention to not disgust other members... «When all the disgusted ones will have gone away, only the disgusting ones will remain...»

Please, this forum isn't a boxe ring, all technical and appreciation comments are welcome...
I like divergent advises also, it's useful, but I hate personal attacks.

I thank here all power-members for sharing their knowledges and advises to other users and made of this forum a well of sciences...

I respect (and understand the reasons and spark...) the decision of Icfu but I also think that we -all- are losing one of the pillars of this forum.
Others are bored too, and their complaints are spread in the wind…Troublemakers have emulators, I begin to see some. There is no need to add mess to the mess; all attacks and provocations must stop.

Paul
Ouistiti, #11943

L'important n'est pas de convaincre, mais de donner à réfléchir.
The important thing is not to convince, but to incite to think.

1,77245385090552...

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Post by *pdavit »

Vansumsen wrote:In this case, Christian seems to be better at programming than at moderation...
...and that's what we actually want, don't we? But we also need the presence of moderation. So, the two elements here, coding and moderating, should be performed by separate people.

What I would like to see is Christian taking just the role of the moderator over moderators. That will take so much time off his back but at the same time improve moderation by introducing more than one new moderators.
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Post by *ghisler(Author) »

Norfie may be a troll who is defending his views very strongly, but he has always been polite. icfu's overreaction wasn't polite at all. It's this "primitive speech" which I do not want on this forum. I'm a very patient person, that's why I have reacted only now. icfu's post was a bit over the limit of what I can tolerate, it was a direct and blatant attack.

If you think that a permanent moderator would have acted earlier, then I have no objections if someone would make this job. Until now I have tried to censor as little as possible, but if you think that this is necessary, then I have no objections. Our earlier discussions have ended "in the sand".
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Post by *Sheepdog »

ghisler(Author) wrote:Norfie may be a troll who is defending his views very strongly, but he has always been polite.
From - Sat Jun 26 23:21:52 2004
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00800000
Message-ID: <40DDE8EF.2020604@gmx.net>
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:21:51 +0200
From: stefan <stepfahn@gmx.net>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207)
X-Accept-Language: de-de, de-at, de, en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: support@ghisler.com
Subject: Beschwerde =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_das_Forummitglied_norfie?=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hallo Herr Ghisler,

das Forummitglied norfie beschimpft mich neuerdings als 'Vollquotetrottel'.

http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34544#34544
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34547#34547
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34549#34549
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34552#34552

Ich möchte Sie bitten, dagegen einzuschreiten.

Vielen Dank

Stefan Schäfer 'sheepdog'
Translation:
Hello Mr. Ghisler

the forumsmember norfie abuses me lately as 'full quote dope'

http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34544#34544
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34547#34547
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34549#34549
http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=34552#34552


I beg you to intervene against it.

Many thanks

Stefan Schäfer 'sheepdog'
I sent this email to @ghisler at june 26th.
I did not even got an answer never mind a warning to norfie.

To call someone a dope - and that permanently - I wouldn't describe as polite.

The fact that norfie stopped his insulting let's me presume that my complaint at least wasn't ignored.

In my opinion there are applied different standards to icfu and norfie.

If you feel disturbed by the nasty f-word you have the right and possibility to remove it. And I'm pretty sure that all users would respect your desire not to use this f-word.

I think you should withdraw the warning to icfu.

sheepdog
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Post by *pdavit »

ghisler(Author) wrote:Our earlier discussions have ended "in the sand".
Oh come on Christian! The issue here is to find ways to make "sand into glass". ;)

I still haven't seen a feasible suggestion. You practically answer to this forum usually only on Mondays (excluding pre and post beta version release dates). You also had to take moderation actions after you had been informed by annoyed members via emails which only prove that you were not watching closely. Is that enough for moderation?

I know you are very busy and that is why we need an alternative moderation solution. You are truly patient and you have tolerated a lot even me on a specific case. For some members that patience can be translated as an inability or unwillingness to moderate. The point here is not if you acted correctly or not on icfu’s case but how to find a way in the future to avoid similar cases. If the lack of moderation is because of money implications please admit it. There are solutions there. Usually moderators can be passionate users with lots of free time and a sturdy post history that are willing to provide their services for free. Oh, by the way talking about money icfu is a registered user. If that is important!

The most delicate issue though is how to find a balance between being provocative and being rude. To my eyes provocativeness is a "clean" way of being rude without looking guilty. If I use the F word with dots I'm generally "clean" because this can be interpreted as something else in the future on my defence. But I am provoking since we all know that the F word is. This, as a general idea, is what happened here. We had one user being provocative 20 times and one user being rude ones. The latter one was convicted guilty because he didn't use the dots on the F word. That for me is just not democratic.

Luckily this forum consists of 97% good members, 2% truly provocative and 1% truly rude. Icfu fits on the 97% portion because he is neither truly provocative nor truly rude.

Edited:

2 Sheepdog

I cannot believe we both used the F word as an argument here! 8)

I did mention it as a general rule here since I cannot read German! I don't even know if the corresponding word in German starts with an F! ;)
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Post by *Sheepdog »

pdavit wrote: I don't even know if the corresponding word in German starts with an F! ;)
It does. :P
And it seems to me as if the F word is the trigger in this case.

sheepdog
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Post by *pdavit »

Sheepdog wrote:And it seems to me as if the F word is the trigger in this case.
Aha! Good use of the word "trigger" which actually reflects the situation. Even polite members can turn rude if continuously provoked. So stopping provokeness is the key element here.
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Post by *Hacker »

AFAIK Lefteous has volunteered to be a moderator...(?)

Roman
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