"Search archives" inconsistency

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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Hacker »

petermad,
petermad wrote: 2022-07-11, 20:24 UTC 2Horst.Epp
But I think the following part of Christians explanation is unnecessary
"with content
file_content"
That part confused me too at first - since it is not used in the later explained search.
It serves to show that the packed file in the .zip contains only the text "file_content" (so it is not found). If it contained the text "file_name" then it would be found also in the second case (search in archives and search for text "file_name").

Roman
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

*ghisler(Author)
Then a search for
Content: file_name
will find the zip when search in archives is unchecked, but not when search in archives is checked.
Problem:
I find search results in the former use case false positive.

Reasoning:
The poor user looking for a "file_name" string in his documents may mistakenly get impression that he has the data he needs.
In actual fact he has only a file with this name; no data.

Using another prism:
If you extend your search scope by adding Archives, you will get less matches.
I consider this a paradox.
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Hacker »

mmm,
Well, as always, the program only does what you tell it to do, which is not necessarily what you want it to do.
Can you figure out a consistent way of achieving what you want which would make logical sense? If yes, please write it here.

Roman
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

I believe the root cause of problem reported above is both nomenclature and the obscure implementation of “Find text”.

Issue: What is “text”?
TC inventors do not have to ask; they know. The others need to search for help. Here is what they find in TC help:
--- If this option is checked, you can enter text to be searched. ---
This tautology obviously gives rise to confusion …


---


Windows nomenclature declare two fundamental categories:
1. File name
2. File content

TC 10.00 supports two fundamental edit boxes for searching data:
A Search in
B Find text

The little man inside me is telling me that when he opens TC for the first time he would expect direct one-to-one mapping without too much thinking:
A - 1
B - 2

No exceptions, no concession. He believes that the above mapping covers all search scenarios and does not introduce confusion nor ambiguity.

When you have time please let me know what you think.
I would also like to invite comments from broader audience.
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Hacker »

mmm,
Well, it is more or less exactly as you describe. The only thing which might be confusing is that when searching in archives, the archive.zip itself is not searched, only the files contained in the archive. This makes sense in my opinion.

Roman
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

I find your feedback useless.
Let me push you into a corner then.

When you put a string to "Find text", what do you expect to get?

1. Files with this name
2. Files containing the string
3. Both

Think twice before answering as none of the options above seems to be valid for TC 10.00 !

C'mon, ladies. You can do a better job I am sure.
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Hacker »

mmm,
Files containing the string. Of course, the result depends on Search archives checkbox. Depending on that, either the files in the archive, or the archive.zip itself is searched.

Roman
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

Hacker,
I hear you.
You are biased towards the tool, I am always on the user side.

Let's wait for other's opinions and comments.
mmm
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *petermad »

2mmm
Let us assume that TC was changed to do what you want. The user enables Search archives and puts the name of one of the files that happen to be inside the archive in the Find text field. TC will show the archive in the search result. Now the user goes into that archive and search again with the same Find text field, to find the file with the text, but will not find anything, because the text wasn't in any of the archived files, but in the archive file's list of file names. Don't you think that the common user will be dumbfounded then - thinking: TC told me that the text was in the archive, why can't I find it now?

The only logical way is how it is now, but maybe for clarification the label "Search archives (all except for UC2)" could be changed to something like "Search in files inside archives" or "Search archives like directories"
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Hacker »

mmm,
Well, if we don't have a clear and complete concept of what the user expects, it's difficult to discuss any pros and cons.

Roman
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

petermad,
I hear what you are saying. Very productive feedback I must say. Thanks.

Now, my use case may lead to a similar confusion I am afraid:
1. You search for data in your files. True files. TC returns an archive even though you did not check Archives.
2. If you open the archive to see your data, you won't find any.

Not only do I find the behavior described above unfortunate, but I consider the reported result false positive. And a false positive result gets a red flag in numerous regulated industries, including mine. Not surprisingly.


--
Let’s sleep on this issue and try to come up with a working solution.
mmm
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *Dalai »

petermad wrote: 2022-07-14, 10:52 UTC[...] but maybe for clarification the label "Search archives (all except for UC2)" could be changed to something like "Search in files inside archives" or "Search archives like directories"
Changing the label to your first suggestion only applies to search operations in conjunction with "Find text". If you want to search for files in archives, it does exactly what the label suggests: it searches in archives for file names matching the search term. Theoretically, the "Search archives" checkbox would need to change its label depending on whether or not "Find text" is selected. Doing so would open up another can of worms because the GUI design wouldn't suggest that a checkbox farther down has an impact on another checkbox in a different dialog area. In other words: the user wouldn't necessarily expect the checkbox to change its label and meaning. Though it changes its meaning currently...

Maybe someone has an idea of how it could be improved, although I doubt there's a silver bullet.
mmm wrote: 2022-07-14, 11:41 UTC1. You search for data in your files. True files. TC returns an archive even though you did not check Archives.
Of course it does because archives are also "true files". It's just that they usually contain other "true files".

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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *petermad »

2Dalai
Changing the label to your first suggestion only applies to search operations in conjunction with "Find text". If you want to search for files in archives, it does exactly what the label suggests: it searches in archives for file names matching the search term.
You got a point - that leaves "Search archives like directories" , but then some things has to be changed, because the next option "Search in subdirectories" is currently not applied to searching in archives, not even if the search is started when inside the archive.
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *mmm »

The root cause of the issue reported lies in the fact that if the Archive checkbox is Unticked, then

- In my world
I expect my file manager to ignore archives.

- In your world
TC fiddles with the archives and does a job that is believed to be healthy for a group of / most users.



I cannot stress more that I do not mind WHAT you implemented. I mind THE WAY you did it.

I am convinced that both work modes described above are legitimate and should be supported.
Yes/no?



If yes, then we are one control state in GUI shy.
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Re: "Search archives" inconsistency

Post by *petermad »

- In your world
TC fiddles with the archives and does a job that is believed to be healthy for a group of / most users.
Is it only archives you don't want to have searched or is it any binary file as for example also .exe and .dll files? And if it only archives, why do you distinct them from other binary files.
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TC 11.03 32+64bit on Win XP 32bit & Win 7, 8.1 & 10 (22H2) 64bit, 'Everything' 1.5.0.1371a
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