TC80ß7x32 deletes without inquiry

JOUBE · Post by *JOUBE » 2011-10-28, 12:53 UTC

Beta 7 is buggy. Stop the rollout of Beta 7. It deletes without inquiry [1].

JOUBE

[1] Pressing <DEL> to delete one file, the inquiry windows appears (for a 1/100 second) but it is closed by itself with the automaticly given answer "Yes"...

MVV · Post by *MVV » 2011-10-28, 13:03 UTC

Have you disabled Windows Recycle Bin confirmations?

I think it is because of following change:

Code: Select all

23.10.11 Added: Make VistaDelete=1 the default on Windows Vista or newer (32/64)

Try to set VistaDelete=0 in wincmd.ini (or enable Recycle Bin confirmations if you disabled them).

When I press just Delete, TC asks for delete and immediately Explorer asks for delete (Explorer's delete confirmation dialog appears above TC dialog and no action is performed until I answer). But when I press Shift+Delete (internal direct delete), TC asks itself and waits for my answer.

But I think TC should provide an option to ask user itself and call SHFileOperation with FOF_NOCONFIRMATION flag if user confirms deletion.

JOUBE · Post by *JOUBE » 2011-10-28, 13:14 UTC

This changes totaly the behavior of Tc for existing installations.

Horrible.

Whitout warning while installation this change is not acceptable.

I can not believe it, that Ghisler(author) does not see, what this change (without warning while installation) meens for users with running config.

One more this kind of changes without information before installation (Beta or not, doesn't care), I will remove TC.

What has the deletion in Tc (in the Default(!) config of Tc) to do with the deletion in Windows? Why it is now in this way linked to it? The deletion config in Windows darf keinen Einfluss auf die Deletion config in Tc haben: was ist wenn ich den PC wechsele (at customer side).

The deletion config within Windows should not have effects on the deletion config in Tc: What is if I go to another PC at customer side with portable Tc as stickware? Horroble for a default config. I do not understand that...

JOUBE

karlchen · Post by *karlchen » 2011-10-28, 13:30 UTC

Hello, Joube.

Starting with Total Commander 8.0ß7, T.C. will assume VistaDelete=1 in case the parameter is not present in wincmd.ini.
This changed default value will affect all Windows versions starting with Vista. (Vista, Windows 7, Server 2008, Server 2008 R2).
It will not have any effect on Windows versions before Vista, i.e. it will not have any effect on Windows 2003, Windows XP or Windows 2000.

On systems where T.C. uses VistaDelete=1, it solely depends on the configuration of the Windows Recycle Bin whether <Del> / <F8> will trigger a confirmation dialog.

I admit it might have been a wise thing to do and explain this in the announcement posts which let us know that T.C. 8.0ß7 is available now. It might also be a wise idea to explain the changed default value of VistaDelete on the download page.

Yet, let us remain realistic: this is still a beta version. And beta versions are meant to reveal bugs and unwanted side effects.

The reason for making VistaDelete=1 the default value for Vista and above is pretty trivial:
There is a growing number of threads where users complain that deleting in T.C. is much slower than in Windows Explorer.
Making T.C. use the delete method first introduced in Vista, hence the name VistaDelete, speeds up deleting.
This comes at a price:
Whether or not you will be prompted for consent before deleting depends on the general Windows configuration, no longer on T.C.
Exception: you bypass the Recycle Bin by using <shift><del> or <shift><f8>.

My personal favourite approach on this subject would be:

reset the default back to VistaDelete=0 in T.C. 8.0ß8
add a simple tickbox [_] Use Vista delete method (Press <F1> to learn of potential side effects) to the configuration dialogue.

Kind regards,
Karl

JOUBE · Post by *JOUBE » 2011-10-28, 13:45 UTC

If - in the future -Tc is only a appendix to the windows config, and Tcs behavior changes if the windowOS config is changed, why using Tc anymore? OS depending tools I do not need ... and I do not like.

Remember: If this is not changed back, Tcs deletion behavior will - from now on - depends on the windows config. If you change windows config, Tc will follow. And this in a central point of a file manager, the deletion config... unbelievible...

JOUBE

karlchen · Post by *karlchen » 2011-10-28, 14:26 UTC

Hello, Joube.

If I understand Flint's post right, then he has briefly explained an approach of making sure that Total Commander remains in control with respect to the confirmation dialogue.

Hopefully, we will read an answer by Christian on this subject.

Kind regards,
Karl

Gerby · Post by *Gerby » 2011-10-28, 19:08 UTC

Hi!

I had VistaDelete already activated in previous Beta releases. But then, the confirmation dialog still came up. Therefore, I think this is a bug in Beta 7.

Beside that, I agree, that people who are using Beta releases should be aware of (even for a developer unpredictable) drawbacks from release to release. Else: Don't use Betas!

Greetz
Gerby

karlchen · Post by *karlchen » 2011-10-28, 20:17 UTC

Hello, Gerby.

As long as you have not deactivated the confirmation dialogue in the Windows recycle bin properties, VistaDelete=1 will only make a visual difference:
The confirmation dialogue is not displayed by T.C., but by Windows itself before deleting anything.

In case you have deactivated the confirmation dialogue in the Windows recycle bin properties, but VistaDelete is still 0, T.C. will display the confirmation dialogue before actually deleting anything.

The mean case is:
You have deactivated the confirmation dialogue in the Windows recycle bin properties and forgotten about it, because you perform all file operation using T.C.
Now the new T.C. version reverts the default for VistaDelete to 1.
Now neither Windows, nor T.C. will ask for your confirmation before deleting.
Now you will notice something has changed.
Pray you have not disabled the recycle bin completely in this case.

I guess that none of us who read Christian's announcement that he were going to make VistaDelete=1 the default in TC8.0ß7 realized that the case explained above were going to happen.

Karl

JOUBE · Post by *JOUBE » 2011-10-30, 07:24 UTC

To make this fundamental change without information to old-users while update process (while installation process of the update) is not ok.

Otherwise discussions about this issue came up as like here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=31990 and here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=32011 and here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=32023

Never make fundamental changes in configuration without information to all of your customers.

HolgerK · Post by *HolgerK » 2011-10-30, 08:22 UTC

JOUBE wrote:Otherwise discussions about this issue came up as like here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=31990 and here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=32011 and here
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?t=32023

and here:
- http://ghisler.ch/board/viewtopic.php?p=232586#232586

Never make fundamental changes in configuration without information to all of your customers.

Calm down, it's still a beta.

http://www.ghisler.com/800_b7.php wrote: WARNING : This is a pre-release version. Do not use this version with critical data!
...
Note: For critical data, we still recommend to use the official release 7.56a for your work!

Regards
Holger

MVV · Post by *MVV » 2011-10-30, 14:40 UTC

JOUBE, anyway, it is right that you report this behaviour, so there is a chance to change something before final release.

Post by *ghisler(Author) » 2011-10-30, 15:20 UTC

The delete confirmation dialog when deleting to recycle bin is actually ENABLED by default on all versions of Windows, except for Windows 8 beta. Therefore if you don't get a confirmation, you must have disabled it yourself sometimes in the past.

It seems that TC can get the current value of this option via function SHGetSetSettings, parameter fNoConfirmRecycle:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb759788%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

I could simply assume that VistaDelete=0 if fNoConfirmRecycle is set.
What do you think?

Biozynotiker · Post by *Biozynotiker » 2011-10-30, 16:41 UTC

I'm a bit concern with JOUBE,

the main problem is IMHO not the VistaDelete=1 setting, but TC's default setting that deletes to Recycle Bin per default.

Even when this is a faster method, a Filemanager should never use the windows settings per default and should seriously
ask for confirmation for everything and all in the default settings. If i can't trust a Filemanger, then there is no need to use one.

All that tweaks can be set later in the configuration dialog when needed.

JOUBE · Post by *JOUBE » 2011-10-30, 17:36 UTC

ghisler(Author) wrote:Therefore if you don't get a confirmation, you must have disabled it yourself sometimes in the past.

Yes, exact. This is what I want to have: NO confirm with Windows, A confirm with Tc [1]. I have configured this behavior exact in this way I want to have it and now you shocked [2] me with a new configuration within Tc: Tc follow the Windows behavior.

This change in the bahavior of Tc is not ok without any warning (while update pocess) in this central point of a file manager. Beta or not ...

At first: Maybe it is ok, that - for new user with new installations of Tc - the windows behavior is overtaken to the configuration of Tc.

Second: In my opinion it is not ok, that Tc follows Windows after the initial overtake by default. But it seems that you and others have discussed it in this way, that you want this. Ok, this is your dessision and not interesting for me, because I can change this default behavior.

Third: In all falls there should be (in German: muss) in the configuration a_visible_ checkbox about this option.

Fourth: Tc-Update to Version 8 had to (in German: muss) overtake the current configuration within Tc about this issue.

JOUBE

[1] If you are interested in, I can explain exactly, why I want exactly with behavior and why I want to have this different between windows and Tc (windows: windows explorer...) in a separate posting.

[2] Tc deletes files without inquiry (NOT I do this deletion, Tc do this. This was my impression in that moment. Horrible. Worst case for a file manager...).

@Biozynotiker: Exact what I want to say.

HolgerK · Post by *HolgerK » 2011-10-30, 18:15 UTC

ghisler(Author) wrote:I could simply assume that VistaDelete=0 if fNoConfirmRecycle is set.
What do you think?

I think it's the best compromise between those users who disabled the recycle bin confirmation in windows and those users who mentioned the windows bug with the huge memory consumption.
The first group will always see a delete confirmation in TC, and the second group will in addition not stumble over the huge memory consumption.
I hope that the number of users who are part of both groups are not to large...

Regards
Holger