Office 2007 files regarded as archives

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Sir_SiLvA
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Post by *Sir_SiLvA »

Sob wrote:IMHO TC should by default (and of course it should be configurable) recognize only archives with "official" extensions, so Ctrl+left/right (and possibly other functions) would open the archive if extension is .zip, but open directory like it does on regular files if extension is .docx (or others). Ctrl+PageDown would still work on everything, because the shortcut does not have other use on files.
NO :!: Just NO :!:
TC is a Filemanager after all and therefor should handle Archives as such not
treat them otherwise just because of some wrong extension.
Everything else just doesnt make any sense - people who dont know that docx is an archive will rarely if at all use TC.

@oshizelly:
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leopoldus
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Post by *leopoldus »

2petermad
Hmm, what happens if you try to open a .lnk file pointing to a .docx file (by "open" I assume that you mean doubleclicking or pressing Enter)? -
I agree with oshizelly. I use shortcuts that way too. I mean pointing focus on a shortcut (.LNK file) and press Ctrl+Left or Ctrl+Right in order to display and to point the focus the shortcut's target file on the opposite (target) pane.

You might ask, who and why for should do such operation. Well, it depends of a user's habits, right? Say, I have to do this operation at least several times per hour, sometimes tens and hundreds shortcuts one by one, so it is a real headache for me every time to give one extra click on keystroke to go back from within the archive.
You are right though, that if I cut-and-paste the full path of a .docx file to the Current Directory line (cm_EditPath) and then press Enter, then the .docx file is opened like an archive - but who would ever go to the trouble to do that in order to open the file in its associated program.
Imagine, that you need to locate in TC some file, which is found in another application, say, Windows Explorer, MS Office etc, or may be from some filelist. The easiest way to do it is copy the file full name and path to clipboard and than paste it into Current directory (cm_EditPath) field. Furthermore, some files search applications as, for example, Everything, Locate32 etc, can themselves send a found file's name to Total Commander, so that the focus in TC pane will point on this file. But as every TC could suggest, for archives, including MS Office 2007/2010, the focus will be located not on, but inside of the found office document :evil:

Well, actually you have the same problem with any archive. But the important difference is, that sometimes or even very often many users prefer to go straight into a ZIP or RAR archive. But who and for what reason needs to to go into an Office document file?

2Sir_SiLvA
Everything else just doesnt make any sense - people who dont know that docx is an archive will rarely if at all use TC.
It is far not a question of knowing something. Say, I do know, that Office docx/xlsx files are zip-archives by there structure. And it seems, that oshizelly knows this fact as well. However knowing this fact does not remove this inconvenience.
Last edited by leopoldus on 2014-03-02, 16:12 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Sob
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Post by *Sob »

Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly against the direction of dumbing things down, but this is not the case.
Sir_SiLvA wrote:TC is a Filemanager after all and therefor should handle Archives as such not treat them otherwise just because of some wrong extension.
As a very nice example, do you use .docx documents yourself? If you do, how often do you work with them as documents and how often do you need to dig inside them, as in zip archives full of chaotic xmls and stuff? And don't tell me you need the latter more, because there's no way I'm going to believe you. :)
Sir_SiLvA wrote:... - people who dont know that docx is an archive will rarely if at all use TC.
I think you overestimate a very large number of TC users.
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petermad
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Post by *petermad »

Well, as we see so far, there are reasonable grounds for this feature for some and not for others, so the action should be to make it CONFIGURABLE like suggested by karlchen
new INI parameter, something like DontTreatAsArchives=.DOCX .XLSX .WAR .EAR .JAR
IMHO this would be the most long lasting way, because many new extensions for archived files might turn up in the future.

The question is - should it be disabled by default, or should it cover some of the most common extensions like docx and xlsx by default without being written in wincmd.ini (if there is a DontTreatAsArchives parameter in wincmd.ini, then only extensions mentioned are included).
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oshizelly
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Post by *oshizelly »

2petermad
The question is - should it be disabled by default, or should it cover some of the most common extensions like docx and xlsx by default without being written in wincmd.ini (if there is a DontTreatAsArchives parameter in wincmd.ini, then only extensions mentioned are included).
I would not regard it as a big question, far not that. Me (and supposedly the most of TC users) will agree with any solution. Let the default behavior remain the same, as they currently are, no problems - providing, that we will get an option to change these defaults according to our own needs and preferences. And it will be fine, if every user can configure the list of file extensions, which TC should treat as regular archives and which of them it should not.

Actually there might be another technical challenge here. Is it possible to code, that even if a user configures TC not to treat Office 2007 etc docX/xlsX files as archives while navigating in panes, it should however be possible to search text inside them.
Last edited by oshizelly on 2014-03-02, 15:57 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by *petermad »

Is it possible to code, that even if a user configures TC not to treat Office 2007 etc docX/xlsX files as archives while navigating in panes, it should however be possible to search text inside them
That's a good question - I wouldn't give buy on being able to search inside archives.
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karlchen
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Post by *karlchen »

Hi, folks.

Is it imaginable that the new option brought by Total Commander 8.50 to search Office XML files and Epub files like normal documents has slipped your attention?
history.txt wrote:25.02.14 Fixed: Search text in EPUB not working when extension of files was .xhtml (32/64)
[...]
25.01.13 Added: Search function: The option "Office xml" now also searches in EPUB files (htm, html and opf) (32/64)
[...]
23.01.13 Added: Search function: New option "Office xml (docx, xlsx, odt etc) searches the new xml-based zipped office files, even inside other archives (32/64)
Check the new text search option in the search dialogue box (<Alt><F7>): Office-xml (docx, xlsx, odt, etc)+EPUB.

From my point of view this new option resolves the conflicting expectations expressed in this thread. Right?

Cheers,
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oshizelly
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Post by *oshizelly »

2karlchen
Check the new text search option in the search dialogue box (<Alt><F7>): Office-xml (docx, xlsx, odt, etc)+EPUB.
From my point of view this new option resolves the conflicting expectations expressed in this thread. Right?
I'm afraid, that not exactly. This option rely on the current situation, but it is not clear (at least for me), whether possible new option "Not treat MS Office 2007 documents as archives while navigating" or something like that might cause as its downside, that TC will lose the current capability to search inside Office 2007 documents. Actually I hope, that the answer to this question is "No", I only pointed to the possible question.
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Post by *karlchen »

Can anybody explain to me what the use is of speculating about how a potential future option "Do not treat MS Office 2007 documents as archives while navigating" might interfere with the current really implemented settings? - Currently there is not even the slightest hint that such a setting will ever exist.

Strongly suggests you have not tested the newly implemented feature to search for text in Office-xml (docx, xlsx, odt, etc)+EPUB without activating the more general option to search (any other) archives, too.

Simply try the new search option and find out whether it does what you want.

But do not let us waste our time by discussing theoretical scenarios.
Last edited by karlchen on 2014-03-02, 15:59 UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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oshizelly
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Post by *oshizelly »

2karlchen
Strongly suggests you have not tested the newly implemented feature to search for text in Office-xml (docx, xlsx, odt, etc)+EPUB without activating the more general option to search (any other) archives, too.
Simply try the new search option and find out whether it does what you want.
I tried this option before - and have tried it once again just now in order to get a ground to confirm, that I have followed your suggestion. Well, it does exactly what the name of this option promises to do, that is searches for keywords inside Office 2007 documents.

So what?? I'm afraid, that I am simply not able to understand your hint. :( I don't understand, which way this option and capability to search inside office document could be connected to the subject of this topic, that is a problem, that TC (including last version 8.50) treats Office 2007 documents as regular archives while navigating in panels - look for example at leopoldus' post http://ghisler.ch/board/posting.php?mode=quote&p=280415, the second on the current page.
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Post by *karlchen »

This thread was started 4.5 years ago.
Software producers started putting their documents in container files which technically are ZIP archives.
This was true in July 2009. This is true 2014.
All the time Total Commander has recognized these files as ZIP files and treated them as ZIP files. And all this time there have not been too many complaints about it.
In order to separate ZIP archive which hold random files from ZIP archives which hold documents Total Commander would need some kind of exception rule or exception list.
We are in a plight here between the users who want T.C. to recognize ZIP archives as such no matter what their content is and those users who expect T.C. to treat ZIP archives which host documents in different ways.
This was explained way back in 2009 (cf. here).
The real plight is the question where to draw the line between common ZIP archives and ZIP archives which serve as application document containers.
No new idea on how to get out of this plight has been posted during the past 4.5 years.
So what after 4.5 years makes this (non-)issue so crucial right now?

Actually, it is pretty irrelevant whether you manage to convince me or not. The relevant challenge is to convince Christian Ghisler.
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oshizelly
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Post by *oshizelly »

2karlchen
Actually, it is pretty irrelevant whether you manage to convince me or not.
That's right. However let me try ;)
This was true in July 2009. This is true 2014.
All the time Total Commander has recognized these files as ZIP files and treated them as ZIP files. And all this time there have not been too many complaints about it.
I don't know, how many complaints there have been. But I'm pretty sure, that the absolute majority of users are far not happy of this "feature", even if they suffer it silence.
The real plight is the question where to draw the line between common ZIP archives and ZIP archives which serve as application document containers.
Well, I can not say, that it is an easy problem. It would be more correct to say, that there is no here any problem at all. Somebody karlchen has suggested a very reasonable and simple solution 4,5 years ago herehttp://ghisler.ch/board/posting.php?mode=quote&p=280420, have you paid attention :lol: which supported other members as petermad as well.
So what after 4.5 years makes this (non-)issue so crucial right now?
The answer is very simple. We should take into account changes have occurred in the world during these years. In 2009 some of office documents were zip-archives and remain of them were not. For this 4,5 years usage of these pseudo-ZIP archives has increased dramatically and now they are everywhere (MS Office and OpenOffice together determine de facto standard of office documents.
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Post by *siealex »

I think the best option is to add a popup menu where users can decide what to do with this file. Open, unpack, open in winzip etc. Like a similar menu when you try to click an APK file on TC for Android.
We are not so S.M.A.R.T. as we imagine...
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Post by *ghisler(Author) »

TC has always treated them the same way: If there is an association, the file is opened in the associated program. If there isn't any, then TC tries to open the file as an archive. This hasn't been changed in TC 8.50.
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karlchen
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Post by *karlchen »

Hello, Christian.

Correct. This is not the behaviour which the thread starter complained about 4.5 years ago. :wink:

The critized behaviour is this:

If my cursor is on a Word.doc file e.g., i.e. old word format, no ZIP archive, and I press Ctrl-Left, then the left panel will switch to the folder where Word.doc lives.

If, however, my cursor is on a Word.docx file, new Word format, technically a ZIP archive, and I press Ctrl-Left, then the left panel will switch to the folder where Word.docx lives and open the file Word.docx as an archive.

The desired behaviour for such archives, whcih technically are archives, but from their usage, are documents, is:
If my cursor is on a Word.docx file e.g., new Word format, technically a ZIP archive, and I press Ctrl-Left, then the left panel will switch to the folder where Word.docx lives. - end of action - Do not enter the archive in this case.

Cheers,
Karl
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