x64 vs 32 bit version: which is better to be run on x64 bit Windows ?

[petermad]

It seems that 64bit TC is more prone to have bugs than the 32bit version.

I checked the current history.txt file and there was 888 64bit-only fixes, versus 252 32bit-only fixes.

On the other hand - there are probably more 64bit TC users, so the chance of bugs being found in TC 64bit is bigger.

Personally I am repulsed by the themed Main menu in 32bit TC, which cannot be avoided (most pronounced under Windows 7, where the menu is light blue with Aero theme)

[umbra]

It seems that 64bit TC is more prone to have bugs than the 32bit version.

Interesting. I've never checked that before, but you are right. Over time, the ratio between 32bit-only and 64bit-only fixes is getting more even. But still, even for TC11.0x, it's 1:2. However, TC feels much more reliable than other software that I use, so I'm not really worried about that.

[ghisler(Author)]

It seems that 64bit TC is more prone to have bugs than the 32bit version.

That's just because the 32-bit version was there first, and I had to make a lot of changes to the Lazarus compiler library used for 64-bit to get similar results to the 32-bit version.

[HalbschuhTouri]

It seems that 64bit TC is more prone to have bugs than the 32bit version.

That's just because the 32-bit version was there first, and I had to make a lot of changes to the Lazarus compiler library used for 64-bit to get similar results to the 32-bit version.

As you're the one who should really know after having invested relentless work on both projects - would you say that Delphi still produces better optimized machine-code in the end than Lazarus does? Or do they both achieve equal efficiency by now?

[petermad]

That's just because the 32-bit version was there first, and I had to make a lot of changes to the Lazarus compiler library used for 64-bit to get similar results to the 32-bit version.

Not entirely - Here are the 64:32 bit ratios of bugfixes for different version intervals:
From TC 8.0b1 to 11.01 it is 888:252 (3.52).
From TC 9.0b1 to 11.01 it is 431:183 (2.35).
From TC 10.0b1 to 11.01 it is 184:63 (2.92)
From TC 11.0b1 to TC 11.01 it is 40:26 (1.53)

So it is getting less over time.

[umbra]

As you're the one who should really know after having invested relentless work on both projects - would you say that Delphi still produces better optimized machine-code in the end than Lazarus does? Or do they both achieve equal efficiency by now?

Just keep in mind, that TC uses over 25 years old Delphi compiler and over a decade old Lazarus/FreePascal compiler. I would not extrapolate their effectiveness in TC to other apps, likely using much more recent compiler versions.

[HalbschuhTouri]

Just keep in mind, that TC uses over 25 years old Delphi compiler and over a decade old Lazarus/FreePascal compiler. I would not extrapolate their effectiveness in TC to other apps, likely using much more recent compiler versions.

Agreed. But this thread is about performance/advantages/disadvantages of TC-versions only. And some experienced users here seem to suggest that the old Delphi-32bit-version of TC would perform better on a 64bit-OS.

For me that's a little bit hard to believe - and according to your contribution about Delphi used in TC being roundabout 25 years old while Lazarus would "only" be 10 years behind present frontiers it should be an obvious conclusion that Lazarus, especially on 64bit machines, should produce more efficient machine-code in the end.

But since seemingly "obvious conclusions" still need to pass the reality-check, it would in particular be interesting to hear what Mr. Ghislers own observations about the performance of both variants would suggest.

[Hacker]

HalbschuhTouri,

Delphi used in TC being roundabout 25 years old while Lazarus would "only" be 10 years behind present frontiers it should be an obvious conclusion that Lazarus, especially on 64bit machines, should produce more efficient machine-code in the end

Why would a newer compiler necessarily produce more efficient binary code? If it did, Christian would have moved on to newer Delphi versions.

Roman

[HalbschuhTouri]

Why would a newer compiler necessarily produce more efficient binary code? If it did, Christian would have moved on to newer Delphi versions.

Isn't that obvious? CPUs of 10 years later provenience would have advanced quite a lot in terms of architecture and special new functionality offered. The older compiler - necessarily "unaware" of such progress - could not possibly make use of this advanced architecture while a more recent compiler COULD do so - but not necessarily will as there are also quite a number of nonstarters in the field of new programming languages and implementations thereof out there.

Lazarus however seems to having been a quite successful port of the Pascal-family to 64 bit-architecture and so it stands to reason that it would belong to that first category being capable of utilizing modern CPU-architecture. Likewise from my perspective it is also too bad that more advanced programming-concepts like "Zonnon" never really made it to the spotlight and IDEs/compilers for it, in particular highly efficient ones, seemingly have passed away peacefully before they even saw the light-of-the-day (apart from briefly flaring up as an optional add-on to Visual-Studio-2008, IIRC).

But I digress a little here. Lazarus is what we have - and so it would be interesting still, what Mr. Ghisler as a genuine man of practice would think about the efficiency of those compilers in comparison.

[Hacker]

HalbschuhTouri,

CPUs of 10 years later provenience would have advanced quite a lot in terms of architecture and special new functionality offered.

That's only relevant if the program itself benefits from said improvements. The performance of a file manager, whose main function, as the name suggests, is to perform file operations, will not necessarily be improved by CPU architecture improvements and instruction set additions.

Roman

[norfie²]

I've simply handled it this way since the x64 version came out. It is always installed the combined x32 and x64 version regardless of the target system. Plugins were cleaned up at the beginning and likewise - if available - both x32 and x64 version were installed. In the meantime only 2 Lister plugins remain, which are only available as 32-bit version and which are used with the x32 version of totalcmd via call of the command line option (totalcmd.exe /S=L ...) from the x64 version.

Thus the x64 version is used on 64-bit systems and the x32 version on old 32-bit systems. Advantage is that no unwanted side effects occur due to virtualization or conditionally different execution (IIRC regedit starts differently depending on which version it is called from.).

[Dalai]

2HalbschuhTouri
Don't forget about fatter and sometimes even bloated GUI frameworks in newer Delphi (VCL) and Lazarus (LCL) releases. That could negate even the most advanced compiler improvements. In other words, it's not as simple as "newer equals better". If it were that way, software in general wouldn't get slower (on the same hardware) as time goes on. Older software does less stuff and often it's faster because of this. It's a balancing act to use newer features that are of benefit, but avoiding features that slow things down and/or have bugs.

Regards
Dalai

[HalbschuhTouri]

Don't forget about fatter and sometimes even bloated GUI frameworks in newer Delphi (VCL) and Lazarus (LCL) releases. That could negate even the most advanced compiler improvements. In other words, it's not as simple as "newer equals better"..... It's a balancing act to use newer features that are of benefit, but avoiding features that slow things down and/or have bugs.

So true - and this is exactly why I would like to hear from Mr. Ghisler himself what he currently sees to be the bottom-line of all possible net-gains and net-losses between both competing versions of TC.

[solid]

Agreed. But this thread is about performance/advantages/disadvantages of TC-versions only. And some experienced users here seem to suggest that the old Delphi-32bit-version of TC would perform better on a 64bit-OS.

Actually, users didn't said that 32-bit version perform better, but that x64 don't. Also they pointed differences between both versions, as pro or cons of each version. Most users that are still using 32-bit is mostly because of plugins or they just don't have enough reasons to switch, performance included.

[Horst.Epp]

Agreed. But this thread is about performance/advantages/disadvantages of TC-versions only. And some experienced users here seem to suggest that the old Delphi-32bit-version of TC would perform better on a 64bit-OS.

Actually, users didn't said that 32-bit version perform better, but that x64 don't. Also they pointed differences between both versions, as pro or cons of each version. Most users that are still using 32-bit is mostly because of plugins or they just don't have enough reasons to switch, performance included.

I have about 60 plugins and only one of it (MSI-Plus) is available only in 32bit.
Even this one is made available as x64 plugin by a wrapper.
So for me, it's logical to use x64 TC on a x64 OS.