Navigation history, "back" and "forward"

[Slavic]

Hello!

Please don't count this post as a direct request for a new feature, it's kind of my thoughts about UI for future TC releases. As it's known, currently the default configuration of button bar doesn't contain the navigation buttons. If user wants to have them, they are easily to be added, but their functionality is quite limited in compare to Windows Explorer or any Internet browser. I mean the lack of drop-down history list and unsupported "inactive" button shape.

1. History list. Yes, TC has a drop-down list named "History", but I think it real name could be "List of previously visited folders". It doesn't contain the paths in chronological order and any path can be listed only once. Moreover, this list could be suddenly cut when using "back" button (I count this as a design feature rather than a bug, let it remains as is).

I would like to see a more traditional drop-down history list, connected to buttons "Go back" and "Go forward" with paths in chronological order. It's easy, well? Actually not, because there is lack of drop-down list control for TC button bar. It should be a special Explorer-style button, not a simple icon borrowed from EXE or DLL resource. After this, maintaining a history of directories and creating two lists for buttons appears not a complex task.

2. "Inactive" shape for buttons. In browsers, when a history list is empty, the button "back" (of "forward") becomes visually inactive. However, this functionality also isn't currently implemented in TC. We have now only 2 possible button states: "normal" and "pressed" (and this is a new behaviour in compare to TC 6.5x!). I don't know how difficult the making of "inactive" state could be (converting icon to greyscale with low contrast, or adding a small grid texture, or something else). Or it could be easy to create only the selected inactive icons, like these navigation arrows.
However, in first approach the buttons could be left as is, without "active"/"inactive" shapes.

[JohnFredC]

I totally agree and so do some others here.

The TC toolbar needs complete renovation to support its existing excellent functionality PLUS all the stuff you suggest PLUS the stuff the rest of the software world seems to take for granted in toolbar implementations these days. After using other softwares that support full/multiple toolbar configuration, it is somewhat inconvenient to return to TC and encounter its relatively rigid behavior.

A small Toolbar improvement already present in TC7 is in the QuickView button, which now visually retains its depressed state. It's just a coding kludge though (and not a revamping of the toolbar), since you can see the button "bounce" one time when you depress it.

[Lefteous]

A small Toolbar improvement already present in TC7 is in the QuickView button, which now visually retains its depressed state

Not just the quick view button. The buttonbar has a quite fair state support in TC 7. Disabled button support hasn't been added yet.

The TC toolbar needs complete renovation

AFAIK the internal changes to support a buttonbar improvements like an improved history have already been performed. Such addtions just haven't been done yet.

[JohnFredC]

That's good news then...

Soon we'll have the possibility of multiple toolbars, docking at various window margins (maybe even in the middle?), multi-state buttons, text-labels by button, navigation histories, variable-sized buttons, combo drop-down picklists, maybe even an icon editor built-in to the toolbar config, etc.

Right?



Yeh, right.

[Clo]

2JohnFredC

Hello John !

…docking at various window margins (maybe even in the middle?)

• Out of pity ! Not in the middle ! Why not on a second monitor too ?
Sorry, I've only a 17" CRT, nothing more and no hope to get better soon

…text-labels by button…

• Pity again ! This had been proposed during the private tests, and buried very quickly, God thank !
- As soon as I have read this, I drew AN ICON to disable this immediately if implemented…
- We have this in XnView, you know, it limits the amount of displayed icons too much, no, thanks… It's always disabled here.

• Like I said already, the only next improvement I'ld wish is to keep the previous used bar when closing¦restarting,
thus by resigning this damned notion of “default”…
• For the rest, please write to Santa-Claus (too late, for X-Mas 2007 now)

 KR
Claude
Clo

[JohnFredC]

Hi Clo! Happy New Year!

For text label "by button" I meant "by button"... that is: each button controls its own text label visibility. I usually have at least one button for which no icon makes sense. In applications that support it, I can put a small text label instead ("ZIP"). MS applications support this functionality, as do the Corel products...

XnView only supports button labels for all buttons at once, not individual ones.

Also, a middle toolbar is incredibly efficient for mouse users. It is the shortest distance from EITHER file list. You should try out the middle toolbar in one of TC's competitors sometime. The Salamander implementation is particularly nice. Magellan's is very nice also.

A middle toolbar would be only one button wide, you know.

New 21" 1600 x 1200 CRTs are going for $50 in the states. 19" WXGA (Widescreen 1440x900) LCDs for $150. 19" SXGA (1280 x1024) LCDs for $140. (Plus shipping.) Prices are sure to keep going down as CRTs phase out and LCDs reach commodity levels.

My wide-screen monitor (24" 1920x1200) is the best computer purchase I ever made... changed my life.

[Clo]

—> JohnFredC

Season Greetings too !

…For text label "by button" I meant "by button"...

• Ah, yes! But the proposal for TC was the same than in XnView, so : Global…
- "Per button" should be acceptable, although I use always my own icons which indeed are all explicit, at least for me…

• Anyway, I don't like a central vertical bar, for me a vertical reading of the icons is not as so natural as horizontal…

• About monitors, the best I missed @ my provider was 21" CRT for € 60 (+ shipping) so, ~ US$ 78… They had a few only…
- I don't like LCD too much, my son has a large one with his laptop, it's too slow and still after-imagery too long for my jobs.
- At the very outside, I'll consider a #2 monitor, but I've to add a G-card…
… and Santa-Claus forgets me regularly each year !

 KR
Claude
Clo

[Slavic]

Hi, JohnFredC, Lefteous and Clo!

Thanks for replies and glad to see that all you support these suggestions, especially glad to know that some of them already are in development. Of course, I will be waiting until they reach the beta state.

About adding the icons and text to toolbar: I prefer to see the icons without text, because text is more suitable for tooltips. If no good pictogram for particular case is found in the TC resources, I search shell32.dll, moricons.dll, other resource files, standalone icons, and of course I can paint something using the icon editor. I'm not an artist, but it's only for personal use

Happy New Year!

[Lefteous]

2JohnFredC

Right?

The difference between the TC 7 buttonbar and the buttonbar in older TC version is that each button is now a single control. This allows more flexibility for each button.

Soon we'll have the possibility of multiple toolbars, docking at various window margins (maybe even in the middle?), multi-state buttons, text-labels by button, navigation histories, variable-sized buttons, combo drop-down picklists, maybe even an icon editor built-in to the toolbar config, etc.

Well not all things which are possible really make sense and I guess not all will be impemented. A useful addtion would be a menu similiar to TCMenu. I posted this suggestion in our Wiki: http://www.ghisler.ch/wiki/index.php/Internal_button_menu_like_TCmenu

[JohnFredC]

Yes, a TCMenu-like function on a button would be nice.

I was being facetious, by the way. Hardly any of that list of toolbar enhancements will ever be implemented in TC... Too bad, though, I use them ALL in other softwares. Very productive/efficient.

A good start on enhancing the toolbar without messing up the current implementation would be a special non-visual "wrap button" that wrapped the toolbar at a specific place. One could place a "wrap button" anywhere (from left to right) in the sequence of toolbar buttons and TC would visually split the toolbar at that point and move the remaining buttons (to the right of the "wrap button" in the config) down to a new row, giving the appearance of two toolbars at the top of the TC window.

I would use such a simple enhancement immediately. It might even shut me up about how restrictive the TC toolbar is.

[Slavic]

Well not all things which are possible really make sense and I guess not all will be impemented. A useful addtion would be a menu similiar to TCMenu. I posted this suggestion in our Wiki: http://www.ghisler.ch/wiki/index.php/Internal_button_menu_like_TCmenu

Good prototype and description, thanks!

[Clo]

2Slavic

Hello ! Happy new year to you!

…If no good pictogram for particular case is found in the TC resources…

…you could give a glance THERE - for 24² icons.
- From my Web Site —> TC Page, you can get 32² and 48² too plus some others.

…I prefer to see the icons without text, because text is more suitable for tooltips.

• I think so too.

 KR
Claude
Clo

[jb]

A good start on enhancing the toolbar without messing up the current implementation would be a special non-visual "wrap button" that wrapped the toolbar at a specific place.

Support! Although I wonder that you have a need for this feature on your wide-screen monitor (24" 1920x1200). Do you have so many buttons or don't you maximize the TC window?

Thinking about that led me to the following refinements:

1. The toolbar breaks should be conditional like optional hyphens (Ctrl+-) in MS Word or OOo Writer documents. So the toolbar gets wrapped at the specified point only if necessary, that is, if the current row is wider than the current width of the TC window.
2. The feature could be realized by a new button property named something like "optional break before" instead by a new special button type (non-visual "wrap button").

I would use such a simple enhancement immediately. It might even shut me up about how restrictive the TC toolbar is.

Expressed nicely.
I agree with almost all you wrote in this thread except with the middle toolbar. I think it would be too interfering. Even the current window splitter is a few pixels too fat for my taste.

[JohnFredC]

Hi jb

I disagree with your refinement #1. My request is to force the existing toolbar into 2 rows at all times so that the buttons are always in the same places.

Your refinement # 2 is a good one, though. MS Office uses a "Start group" button property to place toolbar dividers in a similar way.

Actually, I alternate TC between full-screen and a smaller size depending on activity. When I do that with an extra "long" toolbar, the TC buttons wrap/unwrap, which I thoroughly loathe.

I'd rather have two "shorter" toolbars, one for routine TC internal functions (navigation, pack, etc), and one for external apps and utilities , etc. That way the toolbar buttons would always be in the same positions relative to the panels and my body could store them in "motor memory"... No more hesitating while I look through the toolbar for the button I want, which isn't where I remember it was "last time".

About that middle toolbar... especially with widescreen monitors, it just makes mousing so much more efficient (shorter distances to move). You really should try one (in one of the competitors to TC I mentioned above) for a few days... anyway, just enabling the panel divider as a toolbar docking site wouldn't force anyone to put a toolbar there who didn't want to.

[jb]

I disagree with your refinement #1. My request is to force the existing toolbar into 2 rows at all times so that the buttons are always in the same places.

There are two misunderstandings:

On the one hand your request is actually meant as a cheap interim solution for multiple toolbars (concurrently visible; each on a separate row and left-aligned) until Mr. Ghisler is ready for a full-fledged implementation some day.

On the other hand my refinement #1 (toolbar break like optional hyphen in Word/Writer documents) is actually not a refinement of your request, but a new request to make the behavior of a toolbar configurable for the (exceptional) case that there is too little room in the current row.
I would appreciate a more logical wrapping first of all when I use my portable TC (and a bunch of other portable utilities) on a computer with a small monitor. My toolbar is optimized for the maximized TC window on the monitor type I use most frequently (currently 1280x1024 pixels).

I'd rather have two "shorter" toolbars, one for routine TC internal functions (navigation, pack, etc), and one for external apps and utilities , etc. That way the toolbar buttons would always be in the same positions relative to the panels and my body could store them in "motor memory"...

Good point. It sounds plausible that fixed positions can help to find buttons more quickly. Probably you can remember the exact position of the frequently used buttons and click them almost blindly ("motor memory"), while you can remember the approximate region of the other ones.

About that middle toolbar... especially with widescreen monitors, it just makes mousing so much more efficient (shorter distances to move). You really should try one (in one of the competitors to TC I mentioned above) for a few days...

Today I have tried the "Middle Toolbar" of Servant Salamander 2.5 RC2. Years ago I already tried the similar "QuickDrop Symbols" of SpeedCommander.
Still I'm not convinced of the "Middle Toolbar" (too interfering), but I like the normal pane divider of Servant Salamander. It is only 5 pixels wide (TC: 9).